Podcast Ep. 25 ~ Yoga Informed Therapist Interview - Dr Swami Shankardev

Swami Shankardev was recently interviewed by Dr. Lauren Tober as part of The Yoga-Informed Therapist Interviews—a series that brought together therapists and yoga teachers who are integrating these two worlds with care, depth, and ethical rigor. The series covered the scope of practice, nervous system regulation, trauma sensitivity, and the training pathways that allow this kind of integration to be done responsibly.

In this interview, Swami Shankardev traces a fifty-year journey that began with medical training at Sydney University in 1976 and ten years of immersive study at the Bihar School of Yoga in India — a dual formation that has shaped everything since.

He describes how he integrates yoga not as an add-on to conventional care but as a complete parallel system: Sāmkhya philosophy as the theoretical foundation, pranayama, mantra therapy, chakra work, and Jungian depth psychology as the practical tools, all applied to the individual's specific constitution, temperament, and stage of development.

Central to his approach is the principle that foundation comes before depth — a stable, resilient ego must be built before deeper meditative or kuṇḍalinī work is introduced — and that both yogic and Jungian frameworks insist on treating the person in front of you rather than applying a formula.

He addresses the ethical dimensions of this integration directly: cultural integrity, scope of practice, and the amplified responsibility that comes with holding both the doctor-patient and teacher-student relationship simultaneously.

His vision for the future is clear and unambiguous — yoga in healthcare needs to move well beyond stretching and stress reduction toward a genuine recognition of yoga psychology as a rigorous clinical science, with mantra and pranayama as legitimate therapeutic tools and the deep inner work of the tantric and Jungian traditions understood as fundamental to healing.

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Podcast transcript

1. Tell us about yourself! What do you do and where do you do it?

My name is Swami Shankardevananda Saraswati. I'm a Western medical doctor. I graduated from Sydney University in 1976, 50 years ago. In the same year, before my graduation, I took initiation and became a swami. A swami in our tradition is someone who dedicates their life to the spiritual upliftment of society. I am also a Yoga Acharya, a psychotherapist, yoga therapist, author, and Jyotish astrologer. An acharya is a master and authority in yoga. I earned this title after living and training for ten years at the Bihar School of Yoga in India, from 1974 to 1985.

I now only see patients online as I am pulling back from psychotherapy and am mainly focused on teaching and writing books at present. I teach and write about yoga therapy, philosophy, and psychology on our website, Big Shakti, with my partner, Jayne Stevenson. Here we offer courses, workshops, meditations, podcasts, and consultations, and we are just starting to put our teaching into books.

Our focus is on yoga psychology, yoga psychotherapy, and the deeper dimensions of yoga as a complete system for mental health and self-development.

2. What did you study to get here, both in the fields of yoga and healthcare?

I have had a deep interest in Eastern systems of health and spirituality since age 13, when I read my first book on yoga, The Third Eye, by Lobsang Rampa. After that, I met several people during my teens who introduced me to various teachers, such as Swami Vivekananda’s approach to Raja Yoga

While completing my medical degree at Sydney University, I continued my studies in natural medicine and yoga, and in 1974, I learned Kriya Yoga from Swami Satyananda. I graduated from medical school in 1976, then traveled to India and spent ten years at the Bihar School of Yoga in Munger, Bihar, studying under many yoga masters there.

During those years, I wrote several books on yoga therapy that are still in print, including titles on asthma, diabetes, hypertension, and the digestive system.

I also contributed to several other books from the Bihar School of Yoga, including Kundalini Tantra, and edited several classical texts, including Hatha Yoga Pradipika, Prana and Pranayama, and Moola Bandha.

When I returned to Australia in 1985, I completed a Master of Science degree at the University of New South Wales, researching the physiology of yoga.

Since then, I've added a Certificate in Ayurvedic Studies from the Ayurvedic Institute in New Mexico, a Diploma of Medical Hypnosis, and a Graduate Certificate in Mental Health. So it's been a long journey of study across both systems — Western clinical medicine, psychotherapy, and the full spectrum of yogic science.

3. Why do you integrate yoga into your therapy work? What draws you to do this work?

From both clinical and personal experience, I've seen that these systems address the same human reality from different angles and are more powerful together than apart. Western medicine is extraordinary at diagnosis, at understanding pathology, and at acute intervention. But it often stops short when it comes to the deeper dimensions of suffering — the existential questions, the unconscious patterns, the need for meaning and self-knowledge.

Yoga addresses all of that. It offers a comprehensive map of the psyche and sophisticated technologies for transformation. For example, techniques such as pranayama, meditation, mantra, chakra work, and subtle-body work promote physical and mental health and spiritual realization.

What draws me is the conviction that people deserve access to the full range of available healing tools, not just those that fit neatly within one cultural framework.

I also deeply believe in health education as a means of empowering people to take more conscious control of their lives, and that yoga and Sāmkhya, the theoretical basis of yoga and yoga therapy, are powerful tools for educating and uplifting the mind and spirit.

4. What does your integration of yoga and therapy actually look like in your work these days?

The way I integrate yoga and therapy operates on several levels. In our one-to-one consultations, Jayne and I combine Western psychotherapy and mind-body medicine with yoga philosophy, meditation, and other methods of awakening consciousness. This combination of Western and Eastern systems is in itself a form of yoga, the harmonious or sattwic union of disparate systems. Our primary aim is to help people become more sattwic, that is, more self-aware, autonomous, resilient, capable of intimacy, and able to journey into the deeper self to discover their hidden strengths and abilities that lie dormant in the unconscious. On the medical side, we combine Western medicine — including herbs and supplements — with Eastern healing systems.

Through Big Shakti, Jayne and I run workshops designed to educate on mental health — we offer workshops on Samkhya philosophy, which is the foundation of all Indian systems of yoga and tantra, the Bhagavad Gita and Patanjali, emotional regulation, mantra therapy, and chakra work, all framed through the lens of mental health applications.

We also offer an advanced program with courses on chakras and kundalinī, including guided meditations and lectures. And I still actively do Jyotish astrology consultations, which provide a potent lens into a person's psychological and karmic patterns.

5. What do you actually share when you share yoga? Give us all the details!

When I share yoga, I'm sharing it in its fullest traditional sense — not just postures, but a complete system of psychological and spiritual development. This includes prana and prānic healing, a description of the four organs of mind, the mahā gunas, sattwa, rajas, and tamas, which are fundamental to understanding how to categorize illness and health. Also, Carl Jung’s four functions of the mind, meditation theory and practice, pranayama, and mantra therapy, which is the science of using sound vibration to expand consciousness. I also use the metaphor, practices, and detailed work with the chakra system as gateways to the psycho-spiritual dimensions of being.  We especially focus on the third eye, ājñā chakra, and we have a very good course on this subject.

Jayne and I both draw extensively on Jungian depth psychology alongside the Eastern traditions, because Jung understood archetypes, the shadow, and the process of individuation in ways that resonate deeply with tantric and yogic maps of consciousness. And through all of this, I'm sharing specific practices tailored to the individual—their constitution, temperament, and stage of development.

6. Why do you do it in this way?

Because both traditions — yogic and Jungian — insist on the primacy of the individual. The classical yoga texts describe different paths for different temperaments. Patanjali's system, the Gita, the tantric traditions — they all recognize that one size does not fit all. Similarly, Jung was deeply opposed to formulaic approaches. He worked with each person's unique psychic configuration. My medical training reinforced this, too — in medicine, you treat the patient, not the textbook. So when I work with someone, I draw on this entire range of tools and apply what's appropriate for that person at that time. Some people need grounding and stabilization first, building what I call a robust, stable ego that can handle life's challenges. Others are ready for a deeper exploration of the unconscious. The yoga-tantric framework and Jungian psychology together provide us with an extraordinarily rich toolkit for meeting people wherever they are.

7. How do you decide when it's appropriate to bring yoga into your work with a client?

Most people who come to me are interested in yoga or the esoteric sciences, probably because of my name and reputation. So I am lucky in that respect. In my practice, yoga isn't something I "bring in" as an add-on — it's woven into the fabric of how I understand the human being. But the question of timing and dosage is absolutely critical. The first task is always to help someone form a stable center — what I'd describe as a resilient ego from which they can observe their mind and meet life's challenges. You don't push someone into deep meditation or kundalini work when they're psychologically fragmented. You build the foundation first. I assess readiness through clinical observation, conversation, and sometimes the Jyotish chart, which reveals much about someone's psychological constitution and the timing of their inner development. The classical yoga texts are very specific about prerequisites and proper sequencing of practices, and I follow that wisdom. My medical training also informs this — I'm attuned to contraindications, to signs that someone needs stabilization before exploration.

8. How do clients tend to respond to you sharing yoga?

Most people who find their way to us have already sensed that something beyond conventional medical treatment is needed. They may have done years of talk therapy and felt that something was missing. When they encounter yoga as a complete psychological system — not just stretching and relaxation, but a profound map of consciousness with practical tools for transformation — there's often a sense of recognition and relief.

We find that the integration of Jungian concepts is particularly helpful for Western clients because it provides familiar language—shadow, archetype, individuation, the unconscious—these are all terms that help us frame experiences that might otherwise seem esoteric or confusing. People respond strongly when they realize that the material surfacing in meditation or in their dreams isn't random — it's the psyche doing exactly what the yogic traditions predicted it would do. That's deeply validating and empowering.

9. Do you name that you're sharing yoga explicitly, or is it woven in more quietly?

I should also say that even when I am not using yoga or meditation in a consult, I am always aiming for connection, which is the definition of yoga. And I am always promoting self-awareness and autonomy. I think yoga is just part of who I am, and most of our patients and, of course, our students are aware of this.

If we are going to do yoga therapy as part of a medical or psychotherapy consult, I name it explicitly. I think transparency is essential. When I'm teaching pranayama, I call it pranayama. When we're working with the chakras or discussing concepts from Samkhya or Patanjali, I use the proper terms alongside clear explanations. My students and patients deserve to know the lineage and source of what they're practicing.

At the same time, I'm constantly translating between frameworks. I'll present a yogic concept and show its parallel in biochemistry or brain science, or explain a Jungian insight and demonstrate how the yogic tradition addresses it in practice. The naming isn't about being exclusive — it's about intellectual honesty and respect for traditions developed over thousands of years. In my workshops specifically designed for mental health professionals, I'm quite deliberate about this because I want clinicians to understand the philosophical foundations of what they're learning, not just the techniques.

10. When you started doing this work, did you have any early fears or resistance?

When I first went to live in India in 1976, having just completed my medical degree, I was stepping into territory that the Western medical establishment considered completely outside the bounds of serious practice. At that time, technology was just beginning to develop, and there was a strong focus on it rather than on the psycho-social aspects of medicine and healing, which are more prevalent now. However, I felt something was missing, and I was already exploring natural healing methods and a more humanistic approach to medicine.

Of course, yoga was not remotely mainstream at that time. So yes, there was an awareness that I was moving against the current. But the experiences I had during those ten years at the Bihar School of Yoga were so profound, so clinically convincing in their effects, that any hesitation dissolved in the face of direct evidence.

The deeper challenge came later, when I returned to Australia and began researching yoga physiology at UNSW and building a practice that integrates both worlds. I did not experience resistance specifically, but there was always a tension between conventional medicine, which was skeptical of anything "psychological or spiritual," and some in the yoga world who were very wary of medicine and rejected Western science. Some of my patients had even been traumatized by the medical profession.

I think yoga and meditation are now widely accepted by the scientific and medical communities. The research is compelling for both as positive additions to any treatment plan. This is for stress reduction, mindfulness, and mental health, and to promote deep rest and healing.

11. What ethical considerations have you come up against in blending the two modalities, and how do you navigate them?

Several significant ones. First, cultural integrity. Yoga comes from a living tradition with deep roots, and it must be transmitted with respect and accuracy, not reduced to a collection of decontextualized techniques. I take this seriously because I lived within that tradition for a decade and recognize that much of what we call yoga here in the West arises from an ocean of extraordinary philosophy and a profound understanding of the human mind and the human condition, as cognized and articulated by very great sages whose intellect and wisdom continue to amaze me.

I have continued to study with teachers in many countries for over fifty years to deepen my understanding of these traditions. I do feel that the over-commercialization of yoga and meditation is a potential problem today, as many people are setting themselves up as experts and gurus with only a few weeks or months of training.

Second, the power dynamics are inherent in both the doctor-patient and teacher-student relationships. Both carry real authority, and when you combine them, the responsibility is amplified.

Third, scope of practice — being clear about when I'm operating as a medical doctor, when as a psychotherapist, and when as a yoga teacher, even though in my practice these roles inform each other.

I navigate these by maintaining rigorous standards in each domain, continuing to study and update my qualifications—which is why I went on to earn credentials in medical hypnosis and mental health—and by prioritizing the autonomy and well-being of the person in front of me above any theoretical framework.

12. What structures or consent processes help you and your clients stay safe?

My approach to safety and consent is grounded in a formal clinical history-taking process, through which I gather the information needed to understand each person's unique situation. I use Socratic dialogue to clarify what the individual truly wants and to determine the most effective path forward. While this is often called a patient-centred approach, I prefer to think of it as relationship-centred, or yoga-centred, because the aim is to create a therapeutic relationship and make each moment as supportive as possible in helping the patient, client, or student attain their goals. Once we have established a shared understanding, we clearly state the aims and document them in writing, along with a transparent outline of the process, including costs, timeframes, and expectations. This ensures that both parties enter the work with informed consent and a well-defined framework for moving forward safely.

13. How has this work changed you — as a practitioner and as a person?

The study of yoga, tantra, and specifically Sāmkhya has been the defining journey of my life. When I graduated from medical school at twenty-something and went straight to an ashram in India for ten years, I couldn't have imagined where this path would lead. The practices have changed me from the inside — meditation, pranayama, mantra, and the sustained inner work of confronting my own shadow have all shaped who I am.

As a practitioner, I've learned so much from my patients, clients, and students, and have become more patient, more attuned to what each individual needs, and more humble about the complexity of the human psyche and the karma that each one of us has to live with and try to learn from.

Over fifty years of meeting remarkable teachers and practitioners across many countries has taught me that wisdom appears in unexpected forms. Recently, spending extended time in South India doing Ayurvedic pancha karma treatments and visiting temples has been a powerful reminder that this work lives in the body and in sacred space, not just in concepts. As a person, I'd say the biggest change is a growing equanimity and acceptance alongside an undiminished passion for the work.

14. What does your personal practice look like?

Meditation, pranayama, and mantra are the daily pillars — they have been since 1971, regularly. The specific practices vary depending on what's needed at any given time.

I also maintain a relationship with Jyotish — Vedic astrology — both professionally and as a personal compass for understanding the energetic tides and timing of my own life. The writing I'm doing now has become a form of practice in itself. When you sit with material you've been teaching for fifty years and try to distill it into books — on shadow symbols, mantra therapy, yoga psychology, the chakra-kundalini system — that process deepens your own understanding in unexpected ways. It's contemplative work.

Beyond formal practice, I strongly believe in what you might call environmental or immersive practice—being in places and communities saturated with spiritual energy. My time in India, engaging with Ayurvedic treatment, visiting temples, connecting with fellow practitioners — all of that nourishes and sustains the inner work.

15. What's one thing you wish you had known when you started this journey?

That the integration of these two great systems — Western medicine and psychology on one side, yoga and tantra on the other — would take a lifetime, and that this isn't a limitation but a gift. When I was young, having just completed my medical degree and immersed myself in the yoga tradition, I wanted to synthesize everything right away. I could see the connections so clearly. What I didn't appreciate was that embodied understanding — the kind that allows you to truly guide others with confidence — requires decades of both practice and clinical experience. The intellectual map comes relatively quickly. The territory takes a lifetime to walk. I wish I'd been more patient with the process, though perhaps that impatience was also part of what drove me forward. However, there is always a price to pay for this.

16. What would you say to someone who deeply wants to bring yoga into their therapy work, but is still hesitating?

I'd say study both traditions deeply. Don't settle for a weekend certification in "yoga for therapists." Go to the source. Learn the philosophy—especially Samkhya, which has not been fully appreciated in the West, though it is vital for understanding Patanjali, the Gita, and especially the tantric texts. Develop a genuine personal practice, because you cannot transmit what you haven't experienced. And study the psychology rigorously too — understand the unconscious, understand transference, understand shadow dynamics.

Once you've done that work, the integration will happen naturally, as you'll see these systems describing the same human reality. Today, yoga in healthcare is increasingly recognized and supported. Hopefully, each of us who dives into this work contributes to the growth of wisdom traditions in medicine and the world, which are so needed.

17. What's your hope or vision for the future of yoga in healthcare?

My hope is that we move well beyond the current model, where yoga in healthcare typically means gentle stretching and stress reduction, toward a genuine recognition of yoga as a complete system of psychological and spiritual transformation. The yogic traditions mapped consciousness, the unconscious mind, the energy body, and the process of human development with extraordinary sophistication—thousands of years before Western psychology began to address these same territories.

I envision a future where healthcare professionals are trained in yoga psychology as rigorously as they are in cognitive-behavioral approaches, where mantra therapy and pranayama are recognized as legitimate clinical tools, and where the deep inner work described by Jung and the tantric traditions is understood as fundamental to healing. We're moving in that direction. But there's a long way to go, and it requires practitioners who hold the standard high, who don't water down the tradition to make it palatable, and who can speak both languages fluently.

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